To structure or not to structure, that is the question.
The people I mix with have got somewhat bored with, and no longer wish to think about or discuss church structure. That’s rather a shame as I believe it’s important and perhaps seminal to the current time and the cultural collapse.
If pressed into a debate they say that it doesn’t matter what form of ecclesiology the ‘local’ church takes as long as we love God. The problem I have with this train of thought, the sentiment of which I understand, is that tradition and form often has a huge molding effect on our thinking and thus our actions. And as we know, wrong thinking leads to wrong actions, and wrong principals to wrong values.
There are also those who constantly plead for a return to New Testament church practice, as if we know precisely how it was organised, and even if we did, are we going to avoid development and live in the past? A problem with this debate is that they don’t distinguish donkeys from Daimlers or a slave based structure from a democratic society. They also seem to overlook the problems experienced by the early church and its practices, much of the New Testament was written to correct such practices and problems.
As I often say to theology students, beavering away on their degrees, with ambitions to take up positions overseeing a local community following their graduation. ‘Hmmm… not quite sure your ideas would work out too smoothly in a church in ancient Corinth; I don’t think I would want to be a leader sorting out those crazy values.’ But idealistic students do tend to have this rosy view of what church life is like, and have very black and white answers on how to deal ‘theologically correctly’ with problems.
So we have this rejection of structure, and as I have stated above, I do have sympathy for this point of view when I see what some ‘structured churches’ are like, or what I would call organised religion, but I don’t believe it’s the structure that is at fault. As human beings we need structure and regularity in our lives even if it is only to remember a basic requirement like cleaning our teeth each day.
If you look at history in general and church history in particular you can see how it ebbs and flows, there will come a time of refreshment, increased knowledge of God, a renewing of horizontal and vertical relationships but then gradually man takes over and it solidifies, stultifies, settles and secularises. This says more about our sinful nature that seeks money, power and sex, than about the structure. Ultimately we can even end up allowing God’s power to corrupt us so that we rule and lord it over people, bringing them under our control rather than into God’s love and freedom. Eventually the organisation or denomination takes on a life of its own, often far removed from Godly values. Power rules and people ask the legitimate question ‘is this how a simple follower of Jesus would act?’
We need to remember the foundational building block which is, Jesus said, ‘I will build my church.’ Perhaps we think that as he has gone away that we should now take up the baton, and when we do that, what a mess we make. This is because we confuse the ‘church’ with the ‘kingdom’. God told us to seek the kingdom and he will build the church. The church is not the kingdom and the kingdom is not the church. The church should be seeking the kingdom, which is so much bigger than the church. We get sidetracked building the church, when actually we should be seeking the kingdom.
The challenge therefore is to be kingdom-minded; here are a couple of quotations which you may find helpful as you take up this challenge;
“The church gets into trouble whenever it thinks it is in the church business rather than the Kingdom business. In the church business, people are concerned with church activities, religious behavior and spiritual things. In the Kingdom business, people are concerned with Kingdom activities, all human behavior and everything God has made, visible and invisible. Church people think about how to get people into the church, kingdom people think about how to get the kingdom into the world.
Church people worry that the world might change the church, Kingdom people work to see the church change the world!” Howard Snyder.
“The Kingdom is a dynamic greater than the church. If you pursue the church you won’t find the Kingdom, but if you pursue the Kingdom you will find the church.” Simon Markham.
Adrian Hawkes
For Adrian's BlogW. 860
Editor A. Brookes
Do away with it!
ReplyDeletePaula Coats
esus had a structure, He had his Apostles, disciples and followers. but whats important to remember we are all followers.
ReplyDelete16 hours ago · Like
Donald Baldwin
Well put, it aint structure thats the problem. Theres too much kingdom building and not enough kingdom living.
ReplyDelete14 hours ago · Like
Simon Murry
Adrian! That's the business! That's a word for so many. That language is common in some circles and streams here in the UK and Greek to others. You've been plugging that sort of thing for about 25 years. Don't give up! Your insights, though bread and butter to many, would be an irresistable Tsunami to others that would shake some Christian groups.
ReplyDeleteKeith Lannon
adn't read all your blog sorry. But since we did away with structured sunday meetings and began just eating and praying together we have found a realese. Liked what you said xx
ReplyDeleteabout an hour ago · Like
Paula Coats
I think I agree with most of what you say, Adrian. I like the way people are thinking of church in terms of community rather than services, but I too share the concern that some Christians have rejected structure to their own detriment. Let...See more
ReplyDelete10 minutes ago
Alan Stevens
Adrian.....good word. I wonder sometimes if folks reject "structure" because they've been in places that "structured" out a move of God? Sometimes God requires that we create a new structure so He can be God instead of us ruling and reigning.
ReplyDeleteJust a thought.......Blessings my friend.
Allan above. If Adrian was talking about bums on pews, can you tell me where the blog is, 'cos it ain't this one. Flexible people-flexible meetings-flexible types of meetings -inflexible about Jesus. That's Kingdom building whether there are only 3 bums on seats or three thousand.
ReplyDeleteKeith Lannon
The thing about structure is in building anything you need structure so that is why we use scaffolding for all buildings. However structure then become solidified and rules, almost like leaving scaffolding in place once a building has been finished, and it is then used by people for what I would call 'wrong control' it also imposes in 'church' terms requirements that are not requirement from Gods point of view, it actually turns into Religion, so Jesus said to the Pharisees, you load people with loads that they can not cope with. That is what we do. What we also do is create wrong 'lording' relationships, rather than a 'servant' mind set that Jesus told us that leaders should have, so we get the conflict that is so old like the conflict between the Roman church and the Celtic church. What we need to be is Followers of Jesus, Kingdom Seekers!
ReplyDeleteKeith, I wasn't criticising or contradicting Adrian's post, I was just adding the opinion as I think it helps to clarify what we mean by building. Having said that, I would like to see more people in church if it's because they want to worship and fellowship in unity of heart and purpose with other believers.
ReplyDeleteAlan Stevens
Adrian, just got round to reading your `blog` and only today i was adding thoughts to some messages to a young lady that had had to leave one church largly because of misunderstanding and perhaps a slightly different direction of life in that church. I remarked at the way in which my college life was strongly influenced by the Christian Union,
ReplyDeletemade up from students from a wide range of churches and that fellowship became richer as we visited old peoples homes, sang and prayed together, and even preached at a wide range of churches.
We found serving others was a way to greater love between ourselves and as St Paul advised not to go it alone but fellowship together - `tiss the way to grow as christians, the structure of our churches must recognise the greater `structure` of fellowship across churches.
Very glad to report some very good work for our Hall Green area where a number of churches do work together on certain events, we have built up a council of local churches which includes our local Catholic church besides us pentecostals, methodist, baptist and others.
in this changing world where the church is becoming ignored rather than valued, recieving `missionaries` from the very people that many christians went to `evangelise`.......
We need very much to work as one church even if we are as varied as the early church. Like you i have noted that the early church was as divided as we are today and that we must all move to greater fellowship to prepare for our Lord`s return. Peter Bayliss
No prob Allan. Sorry if I seemed a little "in yer face".
ReplyDelete@Peter. That first remark you made is the source of a universal solution. No matter what brand of "Church" or "Christianity" we come from, if we all put our hand to the plough to work together to bring lost people in, a lot of stuff would be healed and the world would be greatly impressed of the unity of it, if nothing else.
Keith Lannon
Thanks, yes that is what i was trying to say.........
ReplyDeleteone body, one Lord, despite our differences we are but one people
Peter Bayliss
Eskil wrote
ReplyDelete"Jesus told us to pour new wine into new wineskins. If we don’t have structure, it would be like pouring new wine into NO wineskin – and then the wine is lost. I believe we need structure, but it must be flexible enough to contain what the Spirit is doing among us."
Stimulating blog - and some pertinent comments. But aren't we missing the point? One person's structure is another person'a anarchy? And vice versa. I'm no longer interested in any man's 'model' for church. The only thing that really matters, and really works, is 'Biblical Church'. The scriptures give us quite clear and reasonable blueprint for church life which answers every arguement completely. The answer? Demolish and rebuild. Simple.
ReplyDeleteI think this is not the point Alan and what do we mean or you mean by Biblical Church, what is that, and where does scripture give us a clear and reasonable blueprint for church life, sorry mate but do not think this is the point - I think this is missing the point. Rebuild, maybe, but what, and how first we have to get our understanding of what is church right
ReplyDeleteWell, we have pictures of church life as expressed by Jesus in His relationships with people. His activities/lifestyle at Bethany/Bethphage (His seemingly favourite place to meet people) gives us a very real picture. And then we have, of course, the Acts of The Apsotles. Nothing could be clearer. Not a model, ablueprint of church life. Meeting in homes, eating and fellowshipping together, meeting in larger groups when the 'Apostle' or other transchurch ministries come to town, fathered by elders, bring ministry to the gatherings as they meet. All pretty clear to me. And bearing little resmblance to what we enjoy/endure today. Hence a distinct lack of impact, I think..
ReplyDeleteInteresting thoughts Adrian. Jesus' statement that he will build his church leaves us with a mental picture of what he meant but I heard a Brasilian pastor translate it as "I will edify my church". I like this because Jesus is then saying that he willl resource, support, encourage and strengthen his church. We tend toward the 'construction' approach to church but Jesus is its life giver. I prefer the latter.
ReplyDeleteStuart Lindsell
es, and i would add my support to Stuart`s remark about that Brasilian Paster`s translation. It brings back God into man made buildings.
ReplyDeletePeter Bayliss
Some great comment on this Blog, so do I move on or are there more contributions yet
ReplyDeleteSo what you seem to be saying is that we can do church how we want to do it, whatever our 'imagination' leads us to do and then God will bless it. Actually, I think that is what has been happening over the past few hundred years by and large. And, yes, by His grace, He has blessed it. But read Acts, to see how it should be done (albeit with mistakes and imperfections, brought about by human error) and compare the blessing those guys had. No comparison! When we return to Biblical Church, we will see Biblical Blessing. Divine simplicity!
ReplyDeleteNo what I am saying is, is that our priority is to seek the Kingdom, Jesus said He would build the church. I restate, you can not GO to Church you actually can only BE church and the job of the Church is to Seek the Kingdom!
ReplyDeleteYou know me of old....cannot follow you easily, my poor memory makes reasoning a little difficult but i do sense a desire to the older ways rather than what i think you said about the false idea of the early church and so needing us look forward in a changing world. In the `60`s you and others went out on doors or preaching at open airs. I tried that some 25 years ago and that proved to be non-effective. We played in a music group but today where are venues and coffee bars were it would work today ? The world is constantly changing, going out in twos sounds great but find we have to keep apologising and explaining we are not JW`s. In todays society going out two by two is failing to present Christ,
ReplyDeleterather other ways must be pursued and modern methods cannot be ignored. Yes we must remain faithful to the Apostle`s Doctrine but seek a new way in presentation, communication in todays understanding.
There is one lasting way - personal experiences, even today and in todays language we can still `gossip the gospel`
Todays churches still needs a structure, but a structure which encompasses a fluid society, and so must flow in the Spirit.........
about an hour ago · Like
Peter Bayliss